Curse

Zexion · Nov 25, 2006, 02:55 AM // 02:55

That does it!
ANet has seriously pissed me off with their lame attempt at challenge. What they do is not challenge. No, it is insanity.
I am of course speaking about the place called Realm of Torment.

What is worst? Their groups of 5 lvl 28 Rain of Terrors and a lvl 28 Spear of Torment? Or the fact that areas exist where 3 of these patrol so closely together it is impossible to fight them in private? Or the fact that they have instant reaction speed, so that they immediately start casting Ice Spikes on the same target the moment your aggro bubble even comes near their red dot. If any player was like this, he would be the world's best infuser.

It does not bother me the fact that there is challenge in NF. What bothers me is that it is part of an area you are forced to go through to beat the game.
Compare these areas to the mandatory endgame of GWF/GWP. The last mandatory area in GWP was Perdition Rock, and GWF either Silent Surf or Dzacakh Thicket (or whatever... areas before Unwaking Waters).
Does ANet honestly want to tell us these areas are to be compared to RoT? They are a joke compared to this!

If they want to add such ridiculously "challenging" (I thought challenges were supposed to be fun? To me, GWN was fun up until RoT, then the fun stopped) areas, then add them as optional postgame. (Elite Missions and such). Yes I know there will be such a mission later. But if you compare a 8man RoT pug with a 12man Urgoz pug, you will find that RoT pug is at least as hard.

If they really want it to be challenging, then keep it fun. And fun is not dying 60 times on the way from Gate of Secrets to Gate of Fear (with all hench and heroes mind you... still). It becomes more annoying than anything else, and takes the fun out of gaming.
They should really consider making the henchies able to spread out though, as that would help tremenduosly at solving this problem. I know I can control them with flags, but hard to do when the enemy starts casting within 0.1 second of you getting near him.
Also, please, no more than 3 of any combination of Arms of Insanity and Rain of Terrors in the same aggro group. 4 of them can completely kill a target. So you gotta be 100% sure who to Prot Spirit, or else they will surely die.

They say games like GTA turns people into muderers. I disagree. It is stupid forced areas like the ones in RoT that has made me (temporarily) very violent.

Anet, challenge is fine. Just not in this form. Move it to someplace else, or make the henchies smarter, and the enemies slightly weaker.

_Zexion

Avarre · Nov 25, 2006, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zexion

ANet has seriously pissed me off with their lame attempt at challenge. What they do is not challenge. No, it is insanity.

Yes, they completely misjudged the capability of their playerbase.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zexion

. The last mandatory area in GWP was Perdition Rock, and GWF either Silent Surf or Dzacakh Thicket (or whatever... areas before Unwaking Waters).

Morostav Trail, not Drazach Thicket.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zexion

And fun is not dying 60 times on the way from Gate of Secrets to Gate of Fear (with all hench and heroes mind you... still).

Considering the Gate of Secrets is accessed after the Gate of Fear, it would seem you already passed that, then. While Margonite farming I clear that path without any wipes...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zexion

But if you compare a 8man RoT pug with a 12man Urgoz pug, you will find that RoT pug is at least as hard.

That's more a testament to the weakness of the Factions Elite Missions than anything else.

This issue has been brought up over and over, with the same replies - get better.

*lemming* · Nov 25, 2006, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Plenty of people, i imagine, have finished it using heroes without trouble.

Antheus · Nov 25, 2006, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Real players handle those places much better that henchies ever will.

Make sure you don't have any additional quests active. Especially masters level. I can't remember one mandatory place where there would be a need to kill that many of the same mobs.

Interrupt ranger shuts down rain of terror. So does mesmer. Ranger can also handle pulling very well. But in both cases needs to be played by a real player.

Lightbringer gaze is Cry of Frustration available to all.

But above all, make sure you're not doing any additional quests, since there aren't any such groups you need to fight in order to do the primary storyline. And for most part, you can run right past most of them.

And, when you get an urge to kill someone over a game, it's time to take a break.

Former Ruling · Nov 25, 2006, 03:08 AM // 03:08

The first time I went through the Realm of Fear I thought the same way, because I was with my normal party....

All I had to do is swith 1 hero around and I can take 2-3 groups of rain of terrors and never have anyone ever go under half health.

garethporlest18 · Nov 25, 2006, 03:11 AM // 03:11

The key to it is have, interrupts and a paragon or rit hero. The rit hero's name is Olias, max Communing isn't needed with SR. That should help you a out a little bit.

Rhershy8 · Nov 25, 2006, 03:11 AM // 03:11

I understand there are others out there who are still learning to get better at the game. But, Moving from town to town in nightfallen Jahhai (IE: realm of torment) is not very diffcult. All it takes is the right skill set on your heros to counter the skills of the enemies typically in the area. It is a breeze with heroes and henchys if u setup right.

Zexion · Nov 25, 2006, 03:36 AM // 03:36

I have finished the primary quests alright. I am just annoyed at the pain and suffering RoT put me through. Oh, and those 70 deaths I might mention was on the quest "A History of Violence", when trying to kill the last bound spirit. I am mostly pissed off by the fact I accidentally exited the area when spawning and lagging at the same time, and that the counter then reset (and the fact ANet doesn't label if the progress is saved if you leave the area). Next time, I will of course just take the hardest one first.

And I am not speaking of Nightfallen Jahai. I am speaking of Domain of Fear, where they have 5xRain of Terrors at once. Even hero mesmer doesn't have time to use Cry of Fustration on them before they cast 5x Ice Spikes (yes, happened multiple times. Don't know if it is lag, or just the monster AI being better than the hero AI). And when henchies ball up as they do... well, they die.

And to you saying there is no such groups in normal play. Not true, there is plenty of Rain of Terrorx4-5 groups walking around Domain of Fear. And as I mentioned, the enemy AI reacts extremely fast when you encounter them. Too fast for your interrupt heroes to react. They are beatable (at 0-30% DP). But by 45% DP, they start being so big a mouthful I have discovered, that I just avoid them in the first place if possible. The way I see it, these groups are only there to devastate those dumb enough to get close. They are easy to avoid, but if you fail to do so, and caught off guard, you are screwed.

I agree, for normal play it is alright difficulty. But the quests has to be toned down a bit I would say. That area with 3x (4 Rain of Terrors and 1 Spear of Torment), 3 Rain of Terrors, 1 Arm of Insanity and 1 Word of Madness and 8 Margonites does exist. And they do patrol very closely. I tried to pull, with my interrupt hero at full awareness, and guess what? She missed it. Time and again. So we all get hexed. And when I try to run away, so they follow me away from the other patrol, I of course do not get far, as my whole team is snared.

In summary: If you want to have ice eles with uber reflexes, give the henchies the ability to spread out. Placing flags isn't enough, as at least 4 (the henchies) will still stick together, and all be hit by the splash at the same time.

EDIT: Olias as Rt? Hmm. Sorry, but that is a stupid workaround to ANet being too lazy to give us a Rt hero.

_Zexion

garethporlest18 · Nov 25, 2006, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zexion

EDIT: Olias as Rt? Hmm. Sorry, but that is a stupid workaround to ANet being too lazy to give us a Rt hero.

_Zexion

For you maybe but I make do with what I have. :/

Batou of Nine · Nov 25, 2006, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Ya. I absolutely LOVE Nightfall...

Except the Realm of Torment. I just try and get through it ASAP, and take my time enjoying the rest of the game. RoT is simply too much of a chore to get through which sux all the fun out of playing. There are some areas that just boggle my mind as to HOW the CRAP we are supposed to manage? The example that first comes to mind: Exit the Gate of Fear into the Domain of Pain. Go straight East across the large bridge. I want to kill that boss for his elite to cap. But there are TWO mobs of Torment monsters linked to HIS mob of Margonites. Always at least 2 Rain of Terrors, and no matter what all 3 of these mobs + boss are linked... you try and pull one mob, you get the whole enchilada! I think the average was 16+ monstas, sometimes a spawn would hit a full 20... fun?

Honestly, many parts of RoT arn't that bad. But the mobs of 4-5 Rain of Terrors, that patrol with similar groups barely an aggro bubble away make "fun" something of the past. Just take peoples advice about how to handle the areas like good amounts of interrupt, and try to power through as fast as possible. Frankly, if i didn't love the rest of NF so much, this zone might be enough to make me leave GW. Devoted fan since day one of Prophecies... I hope to keep it that way. Don't care if Anet does or does not change anything here (probly won't), just curious as to whether their "testers" had as much "fun" as the rest of us in RoT?

cheers!

Cheers.

Shadow · Nov 25, 2006, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zexion

I have finished the primary quests alright. I am just annoyed at the pain and suffering RoT put me through. Oh, and those 70 deaths I might mention was on the quest "A History of Violence", when trying to kill the last bound spirit. I am mostly pissed off by the fact I accidentally exited the area when spawning and lagging at the same time, and that the counter then reset (and the fact ANet doesn't label if the progress is saved if you leave the area). Next time, I will of course just take the hardest one first.

I only had to kill one bound spirit and I completed the quest, if I recall correctly..which I thought was odd. I guess it's the Domain of Fear for a reason eh? Yes, that place sucks majorly. I went through similar experiences, especially trying to get a certain green spear during the tripple green weekend, and never did due to the eles there. It's frustraiting, but I guess frustraiting = challange..? Meh.

garethporlest18 · Nov 25, 2006, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Well I cleared that whole area without to much trouble, henchies did have nice DP though, never a wipe for all of us though. Then we ran into the Mind Freeze ele boss. That ended that trip. One hit kill on EVERYONE=gg. No such thing as PS for whole party. Cause that boss is double damage and double casting.

Curse, Domain of Fear is harder than any other domain or mission. I laugh at Shiro, no one laughs at Domain of Fear. Then again not many people try to clear it. Let me see you (yes a video wont believe anything else) take out that Rain of Terror ele boss there with 60 DP on everyone. Not possible. He also comes with 2-3 other Rain of Terrors!!!

Curse You · Nov 25, 2006, 03:48 AM // 03:48

I LOVE how people are getting annoyed that Water Elementalist are doing so much damage. Ice Spikes + Deep Freeze has been around since Prophecies.

I think the Realm of Torment is fine the way it is. If you can't get through the area to the next mission, then you don't deserve to get there.

Chicken Ftw · Nov 25, 2006, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batou of Nine

There are some areas that just boggle my mind as to HOW the CRAP we are supposed to manage? The example that first comes to mind: Exit the Gate of Fear into the Domain of Pain. Go straight East across the large bridge. I want to kill that boss for his elite to cap. But there are TWO mobs of Torment monsters linked to HIS mob of Margonites. Always at least 2 Rain of Terrors, and no matter what all 3 of these mobs + boss are linked... you try and pull one mob, you get the whole enchilada! I think the average was 16+ monstas, sometimes a spawn would hit a full 20... fun?

Had no real issues with this huge mob as warrior with one human monk and a hero monk, two searing flames heroes, Koss on dragon slash duty, with Jin and Margrid on interrupt. They clumped up on myself and Koss, while the eles destroyed them, with Jin/Margrid interrupting the two clerics. Monks kept us alive, although Koss did drop once after a particularly nasty spike. Being able to adapt > PvE.

Antheus · Nov 25, 2006, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zexion

I agree, for normal play it is alright difficulty. But the quests has to be toned down a bit I would say. That area with 3x (4 Rain of Terrors and 1 Spear of Torment), 3 Rain of Terrors, 1 Arm of Insanity and 1 Word of Madness and 8 Margonites does exist. And they do patrol very closely. I tried to pull, with my interrupt hero at full awareness, and guess what? She missed it. Time and again. So we all get hexed. And when I try to run away, so they follow me away from the other patrol, I of course do not get far, as my whole team is snared.

How about trying it with real people?

Rains aren't hard to interrupts, especially for a ranger. Word of madness isn't hard to shutdown either. Both of them use slow casting spells.

With a human puller and human monk damage management becomes piece of cake. So does spreading out, watching agro, managing hexes, retreating, ...

Your team is snared because it's not spread out, and your puller is not one agro bubble away. Interrupt hero isn't doing his job because he's spamming random interrupts at your current target, not at the most dangerous and interruptable target. Patrols are only close since henchies don't understand staying back and letting one person pull to separate them.

RoT is fine. For human groups. That is a hint by Anet. You will see that many PUGs form there just for that reason.

It's possible with henchies, but not enjoyable.

generik · Nov 25, 2006, 04:01 AM // 04:01

You guys whined and whined against runners when they did nothing to you... so now runners are eliminated.

Enjoy... lol

Batou of Nine · Nov 25, 2006, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Chicken Ftw.

Don't tell me to adapt. i know the game. My point wasn't that that particular mob was impossible to kill, my point was that that kind of situation is the sum of the RoT making "fun" not so much. So all of a sudden the Ai dumned down just for you and stayed on your tanks, making your nuking incredibly easy? How lucky for you, with the new Ai since NF release i have yet to have that happen. My tanks are passed up 100% of the time, while my casters take dmg right and left, sending them running around like headless chickens instead of casting spells and healing. Meanwhile as monsters are playing follow the leader with my casters, my melee characters are following THAT train trying to hit the monster.

Now the kind of situation i am talking about is definitly managable in the rest of Nightfall. But arrive at RoT and you got a whole new kinda challenge (fustration). I am glad you didn't have a problem, majority wise people ARE having issues.

cheers!

Taurus · Nov 25, 2006, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zexion

They say games like GTA turns people into muderers. I disagree. It is stupid forced areas like the ones in RoT that has made me (temporarily) very violent.

Anet, challenge is fine. Just not in this form. Move it to someplace else, or make the henchies smarter, and the enemies slightly weaker.

_Zexion

I'm not going to say "omg I pwnzors with heroes coz I finished da hole gam witz they" because A LOT of people did it. If your not being able to play the game right, its your own friggin fault by having a stupid build for example a moronic Stance Warrior with no damage.

DO NOT blame it on the good challenge ( wich again A LOT of people have complimented in other threads ) that nightfall brings. If you cant have fun with the NF challenge, your the only one dude ( of course along with another couple of losers also ).

Muranodo · Nov 25, 2006, 04:22 AM // 04:22

The actual challenge of the area didn't bother me. While going through first with my paragon, I found it annoying to say the least. Despite interrupts and the like.

What annoys me specifically is the Gate of Fear. I have a water ele, and I collect greens for him.

Storm of Anguish in the Domain of Fear. <--this boss and the mobs surrounding him caused me frustration to no end. I tried 8-man farming it, but the DP got up to the point where ice spikes spiking wiped out all the party besides my Paragon...then he'd die without any heals.

So what frustrates me is trying to farm the Stormborn Artifact. Otherwise, I can survive, move on in the game with whatever class is there, but that green is my sole nuance.

Antheus · Nov 25, 2006, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batou of Nine

Now the kind of situation i am talking about is definitly managable in the rest of Nightfall. But arrive at RoT and you got a whole new kinda challenge (fustration). I am glad you didn't have a problem, majority wise people ARE having issues.

Just out of curiosity. Can you point out one example where players are having problems when not playing in all hench groups?

All complaints on these boards always include full hero/hench builds. All advices always include only hero/hench teams.

How come there isn't a single comment on human teams (full or partial)?

Henchies are stupid. That's a known fact. But this has nothing to do with RoT, which, by design, requires skill - something AI will lack.

I do know that many, LB farming groups or masters groups for example, complain that RoT is too easy, and margonites are a joke.